Grappling

by Ilkka on Nov.11, 2009, under General Martial Arts

A pankration scene by Pirro Ligorio, supposedly after a Roman coin

After being ill for a week I’m slowly and steadily getting back into a proper training routine (proper depending on one’s idea of such a thing), and as usual, it is difficult and challenging. The realization of how much easier it would be not to train at all is a strange one, but the paradox is that the less I train the more a whine and the more miserable I actually feel. The ‘pain’ in muscles and the body takes away much of the mental pain, and cures all the stiffness and soreness caused by being idle. Still, I always find exercising as something I like, but at the same time something I need to force myself into. It doesn’t come easy, especially at times, but rather it is a fight to get it done. This is for all who wrestle with the same issue – no, it is not easy for anyone. One needs to see some trouble… there are no shortcuts.

Speaking of wrestling, a new essay by John Clements of ARMA, discusses the absence of ground fighting in the historical martial arts literature and the general nature of the grappling methods within. No special news in the essay, but it is a very good read and in my opinion very true. While there is nothing wrong with ground fighting and grappling and BJJ and the like, I think people who are into the historical side of things should think about this matter more. In events like Swordfish, where the unofficial wrestling events were the thickest concentration point of energy, it would’ve been nice to see people practice more ringen or abrazare than BJJ-inspired brawling.

Same goes to the other point expressed by Mr Clements, that the wrestling is sometimes seen as too separate of an aspect from the swordwork, sometimes people either fence with swords or then they wrestle, but the middle ground, the entry into wrestling and an intelligent use of the weapons in closer than optimal range is often overlooked..

:john clements, swordfish, wma, wrestling

8 Comments for this entry

Petter
November 11th, 2009 on 7:48 pm
Could part of the reason for the lack of standing wrestling be that the techniques are more dangerous? If I were to grapple with a stranger, I would much rather try to armbar them from a grounded position than try one of Fiore’s takedowns with a very real risk of landing the other person on their head.
Ilkka
November 12th, 2009 on 8:24 am
Hi Petter!

If you’re talking about events like Swordfish – then sure, this is a consideration. But then again, how many of those fights actually started from kneeling down? And from a kneeling position, the fight doesn’t have to ‘go to the ground’.
Sparky
November 15th, 2009 on 11:57 pm
I think you’ll find people going into MMA-mode because that is what they know for various reasons (most often because folks don’t learn to actually grapple in HEMA schools… they learn that elsewhere). Also, folks tend to forget how easily sport combative systems get optimized for a particular ruleset. Easy fix: use the rules that the first person to the ground loses. Watch how quickly the clear BJJ influence disappears.

I highly doubt the historical masters simply expected their students to give up and die once they touched the ground. I also doubt that any of the masters proposed going to the ground if you don’t have to, particularly on the bottom. But I do suspect the masters expected thier students to have some idea of how to protect themselves should they end up there (based on what they know standing up).

For contrast to BJJ – look at American Catch-As-Catch-Can Wrestling. They definitely use standup submissions that look the same as the ones they use on the ground.
Ilkka
November 16th, 2009 on 9:20 am
Hi Sparky,

yes I agree with you – but is this the optimal situation? I would prefer it if people interested in grappling could learn that in a HEMA school, even if the teacher’s experience came from BJJ, it would be different if he/she had an extensive knowledge of the (mostly stand-up) stuff from the treatises. Then the teaching could be conducted in a HEMA-inspired way.

This is more obvious for those who take a sort of more holistic approach to martial arts, for me, fighting is fighting and working is working, and as long as you personally feel that all your skills are integrated and fit into the situation, and that you are aware of what you are actually doing, it doesn’t matter that much what the source of the knowledge is. After all, you should be ‘inspired’ in your work, so that you can always find new ways of doing things and not just repeating a particular technique.

Of course this process is separate totally from the interpretation process and from reading/training/teaching the instructions of one particular master or source.

But yes, if I had a student who ended up wrestling on the ground in some (let’s say training situation where he/she is supposed to keep working), I would accept no talk of stopping there just because they ended up on the ground. Even if it was not preferred, I’d have them keep going. It’s a bit the same, as depending on the context, the students should be able to continue fighting with a sword even if they are injured… if they get cut in the right hand, they continue with their left. Ultimately this is the point.

Good point about catch, that is very true. From the little I’ve seen I have as well gathered that it doesn’t really matter for them whether they are on the ground of where ever, the same things still work, or are made to work!
Sparky
November 16th, 2009 on 4:23 pm
Oh, I definitely agree that it is best (for our purposes at least) for folks to learn grappling in an HEMA-centric environment. Not because the historical material is somehow magic, but because it provides a nice context. Really, the more I have studied it, the more I have concluded that grappling is grappling – just some things make more sense than others in a given context and sport rulesets tend to influence the teaching of styles a great deal (to the extent that folks begin to think the different rules means the wrestling is different). A great way to think about it was expressed at the end of this article: http://damagecontrolmma.com/modern-catch-as-catch-can-written-by-kris-iatskevich/

Roger Siggs has done a couple of nice classes where he will start by teaching a few unarmed vs dagger plays standing, then will progressively make the situation worse for the patient- they’ll have to remain on their knees while the attacker is on their feet, then the patient will have to do the play from their back while the attacker is standing or on their knees. It is a pretty clear and believable extrapolation to a less and less ideal situation. And once you realize that you can do one of Fiore’s dagger covers and perform a canonical follow on technique while you are on your back – suddenly the lack of explicit groundfighting material with the Patient on their back makes sense. They didn’t emphasize it as an ideal position (the way some BJJ practitioners do today), because it isn’t… especially when there are no rules forbidding techniques and when weapons are involved.
Ilkka
November 17th, 2009 on 8:21 am
I agree completely. Knees to the groin, pushing the eyes and so on work perfectly on the ground – as do the first plays of abrazare and other things as well. Good post! Thanks also for the link, I greatly enjoyed reading it. Very good stuff. There are so many things to learn!
Sparky
November 17th, 2009 on 8:00 pm
Glad to help! I’ve really enjoyed my exploration of grappling in a HEMA context. I do wish I had access to a few more translations of some historical wrestling material (the section from Monte, for example) and some more texts/papers on folk wrestling traditions, since I believe these are the best places to see the kinds of things the historical masters would have expected their students to know about.

But from what I have been able to find, there is a lot of basic material that can be used to reasonably augment the historical material we have, and even allow for a sport version that still provides good training for the non-sport version. From there it is just a matter of using rules that keep the end-goal in mind.
Ilkka
November 18th, 2009 on 8:26 am
I agree, Sparky. By the way, if no one else beats me to it, I might try to come up with a rough translation of the Monte wrestling material soon, it is in my mind daily, it is just hard to find the time.

It all depends a bit on how challenging the text is — in all honesty I’m not very skilled in translating things from Italian, but I might be able to compose an overview and a rough translation that gets the idea across.